Curse

Sausaletus Rex · Apr 26, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Collision detection - that objects are solid and cannot be passed through - brings up a lot of interesting tactical possibilities in Guild Wars. Here's one of them.

An important fact about shields that's often overlooked is that they only work from the front. There's a distinct arc where the shield's defensive bonus is added to your armor. No one's quite sure what it is but it's generally agreed to be in the front and not in the back (It's still in doubt just how much of the sides are covered, that's all).

This is the space around your character (X), blows come from all around them in a circle:

+++
+X+
+++

Let's say your character is facing towards the top of your window, the space covered by a shield (=) would be those in front of them:

===
+X+
+++

If they were to turn around it would look like this:

+++
+X+
===

Or this:

=++
=X+
=++

Now, another little known fact is that when a character is running any hit delivered to them will be a critical hit. When being beaten on by a Warrior or a Ranger often the worst move you can make is to turn and run to get away from them. You're just opening yourself up to a lot of pain. Sidestepping (using the Q and E default keys on the WASD movement set-up), however, doesn't incur any critical hits although you'll prevent yourself from attacking or using any skill with a casting time.

Finally, each hit you make with any sort of attack that takes armor into account has a hit location. Characters have five different locations - Head, Chest, Arms, Legs, and Feet and can wear different armors in each. The head, especially, tends to receive a different level of protection because that's where +attribute headgear goes and that's generally a bit worse than the high-end armor choices. Normally, your chance to land a hit on any of these areas is equally distributed amongs these areas in the following manner:

Head: 12.5%
Chest: 37.5%
Arms: 12.5%
Legs: 25%
Feet: 12.5%

So normally you're three times as likely to hit someone in the chest as you are in the head. And twice as likely to strike their legs. Everywhere else has a 1 in 8 chance. Certain skills change these percentages, though, for example Fire Storm strikes mostly at the head. The reason they do this is because of the direction the blows are travelling in. Fire Storm comes from above so it's more likely to strike the head. If you stand above your target and deliver blows you'll be more likely to strike the head, too. Below and you'll hit their feet more often than not. Changing the position of your character in relation to your opponent can change that percentage table and allow you to land more effective blows against a weaker part of their armor.

Putting it all together we can see that positioning your attacker in relation to a target can be of great value to your damage output. Experienced players will be working to find the most advantageous position in which to attack a target. For example, as a Warrior, I've learned to sidestep in a circle around my opponent to get behind their shield. This also leads to more critical hits if they decide to run as well as, it seems, a better hit table against their armor.

Here's how it looks with my Warrior as an (0) and I'll press, say, E and A at the same time to sidestep and pivot. My opponent blocks my path and I slide alongside them.

===
+X+
+0+

As my target turns, I work to swivel around them like so (In an obviously simplified diagram):

=++
=X+
=+0

+++
=X0
==+

++0
+X+
===

+0+
+X+
===

This can also be used by ranged attackers although they'll obvious have a much larger radius to traverse. It costs me a swing or two to do so, but by seeking the best position all my swings are better even against someone without a shield and, at the same time, when my opponent moves they can cast or attack either.

Now, if they know to quick turn (The default is X), this can take a bit longer and even be thwarted entirely. That's why, in a team, I like to have at least two attackers working together. Each tries to stay to one side of the target so even if they keep turning around someone will be attacking their back. Like so:

=0=
+X+
+0+

This also makes it much harder for them to get away from the attackers because they'll have to sidestep themselves or turn to the side quickly and then make a run for it, give each attacker a free shot as they do so.

And, of course, from there we get into things like pathing and body blocking and other fun tricks you can do to gain an advantage, but the simple, easy lesson here is this: Sometimes you don't want to just press space and hack away. Careful positioning and awareness of yourself in relation to your target and your environment can give you a much bigger edge than making another attack. Your character can move and slide around the battlefield. Use that tool and make the most of it.

Gh0sT · Apr 26, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Great info Rex... this is really useful...

So better find myself some higher position as a ranger so i can hit that head more often

JeshterDaggerfury · Apr 26, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

What an excellent post. I found that most beneficial! Keep up the good work.

Draken · Apr 26, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

nice work, is this and your other couple posts like the "how to make money" going to make it into the guide section?

mostro · Apr 26, 2005, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I would be interested to know if anyone has sucessfully use formation in a team. So far any kind of team formation quickly degenerates into "attack and follow the called target" mode as soon as the fight starts. The only exceptions are on the CTR map where a team may be split to guard the runner and defend the base, and on Koth map where everyone is clumped together on the dais.

Draken · Apr 26, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

well ive had an opposing team form a wall blocking the flag off in gvg so the runner had to go all the way around. This was in the wizards keep which has fences around the flag and two paths into it soo.. it basicly screwed us over.

Ander Deathblade · Apr 26, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Great post! Very informative, Mr. Rex!

I can do it.

Eejit · Apr 26, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I once saw a team make a solid line protecting their GH and Priest in the Tombs. We just kinda were screwed becasuse we didn't have enough ranged power to kill 2 monks. So yeah, I've seen it, but never like a battle formation, although it could be interesting to try employing one.

Cyrus the Mighty · Apr 26, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Battle formations would pretty hard/impractical to pull off because of our good friend, AoE.

Apr 26, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

depends on the formation. You can either disrupt AoE spells or just work around them if you play it right.

Zarconis · Apr 26, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

I would demand that this be stickied except I would rather you remove the post entirely. It has enlightened my knowledge to such a level that I would prefer that it NOT be common knowledge.

Considering that I find the targeting system in GW somewhat difficult as well as getting a good angle on a target this is one of those rare time in GW where dexterous fingers will come in handy.

Oh to be in a guild that actually strategizes this way.......

ratatass · Apr 26, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Excellent!

You have now added more complexity to my already sucking game play.
More of the quality stuff that you always bring on.

I think you should post this as one of the guides on the site.

I always try facing my opponent with the shield, but was not aware of using the sidestep keys!

Thank you again Rex!

Sausaletus Rex · Apr 26, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

"Formations" are probably a bit too rigid and inflexible for a squad-based situation like most battles in Guild Wars are. What's important though is tactics. Coordination, the movements of your team as a whole, are what should be the focus. You need to get your attackers on a target as quickly as possible, screen targets from reaching your backlines, or swap targets quickly and efficiently to bring them down, and a lot more. That sort of movment and positioning is going to go a long way to making a team successful to the point where it can make-up for bad strategy and poor skills and other flaws in your team.

Not to say that formations aren't a good thing, just that a large degree of success in GW is attained by being flexible. It's not as important to *be* in the right place as it is to know when to *move* to the right place. But formations can be used to good effect. For example, in PvE play, your healers can be kept inside a "wall" of other characters to protect them, or they can tail the group staying just in healing range and that means they'll be much less likely to be hurt so they can keep your group afloat.

That said, teams have fused collision detection to good effect, such as trapping an enemy playing inside a Warrior train or body blocking a relic runner to trap them along the rails, as it were, so they can't advance - same thing with the Hall and blocking the stairs so a team can't bring their Hero down, and on and on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draken

nice work, is this and your other couple posts like the "how to make money" going to make it into the guide section?

Well, I hadn't intended it as a guide or anything of the sort. It was just a fragment I had lying around that I decided just wasn't going to make the cut as an article. I understand that it might be pretty interesting and advanced to a lot of people but for me this is basic stuff or stuff that I just can't speak authoritativly enough about to give it that "official Guru Guide" stamp - there are a lot of holes here like why positioning matters when someone doesn't have a shield or how relative positioning affects the hit table or just how much of a benefit a critical hit is and plenty of other things I'd want to fill in before I were to publish it to say nothing of editing and vetting it and all the time and effort involved. Same thing with the "money" thread and the "customizing your UI" thread and the "team builds" thread and plenty of others. It was an idea I had, maybe where I jotted down a few lines here and there or a summary but just came to realize that I don't have the time or energy to do it full justice so better to post it up as someone out there might be interested in it. I have plenty of other little scraps like "How to Manage Energy through Tactics" or "How to Make a Good Build Without Skills" or "Doing What it Takes to Win" or "Leveling" and such - just things I think people need to be aware of and aren't talking about - that I've dreamed up and haven't had time to get back to and, as release approaches I don't think I'll have any time for them soon.

But, I suppose I could, with some expansion and tweaks here and there make a guide of it. I wouldn't hodl your breath any time soon, though. I am trying to rewrite the Warrior overview guide and positioning is probably going to feature into it somehow. Again, lots to get done before I get that done, though, and there's this little game coming out I want to try out, too, so might take a little while.

Really, that this post is so relevatory and, apparently, unique is a bit depressing. These boards are not for self-congratulation, we're not a mutual admiration society here, this post is the sort of thing we made this site and these forums for. GW talk. Heady, intelligent, deep GW talk. Is it really getting so rare around here that I'm worthy of praise for bringing up such a fundamental concept as "Hey, you can move your character around guys and get a few more points of damage!"? I mean, this is background stuff and I haven't even gotten into creating chokepoints, messing with auto-pathing, abusing collision detection, or the optimal amount of people need to encircle and trap someone. Maybe once we're all playing regularly we'll have more of this kind of talk but, really, I don't see it as anything remarkable or noteworthy.

Greentongue · Apr 26, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Still, placing these "Basics" in a place where they will not fall off the forum would be a great favor to everyone.
It may be a while before the glamor wears off for the rest of us. We have not been allowed to play for as long as an Alpha.

It's a lot like going to a big city for the first time. The quantity of information is overwhelming and the basics get swamped in it.

FengShuiBundi · Apr 27, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Sticky this, or something! It's more important than the basic builds for each class stickies that take up the top of the page. This is amazing, I'd heard of it before, but never in such detail.

Thanks for enlightening us.

Belwas · Apr 27, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Sticky this! I haven't gotten to play, waiting for my copy to arrive.. but I already feel like I understand at least this one key element to gameplay, and am looking forward to the possibilities it represents(Can't tell you how often I have wished Dark Age of Camelot had collision detection..)

Luggage · Apr 27, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Rex: there is a huge influx of new people now, and many come from a background without collision dectection nor even localized damage or bonus for higher ground or crit. modifiers. (perhaps apart from a special "back-stab" skill or such)

On the other hand you have waepons and skills and attibutes - something that allmost every other game has in more or less the same form. Of course most new people are going to come looking for the differences and liknesses in the areas of the game mechanics that they are familiar with and miss or overlook the significance of things like this untill they come across an explanation like this.

As for the people coming from FPS or RTS background they are sure to miss other things instead.

Just keep up the good work.

:beer:

Blight And Ruin · May 03, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Finally, each hit you make with any sort of attack that takes armor into account has a hit location. Characters have five different locations - Head, Chest, Arms, Legs, and Feet and can wear different armors in each. The head, especially, tends to receive a different level of protection because that's where +attribute headgear goes and that's generally a bit worse than the high-end armor choices. Normally, your chance to land a hit on any of these areas is equally distributed amongs these areas in the following manner:

Head: 12.5%
Chest: 37.5%
Arms: 12.5%
Legs: 25%
Feet: 12.5%

So normally you're three times as likely to hit someone in the chest as you are in the head. And twice as likely to strike their legs. Everywhere else has a 1 in 8 chance. Certain skills change these percentages, though, for example Fire Storm strikes mostly at the head. The reason they do this is because of the direction the blows are travelling in. Fire Storm comes from above so it's more likely to strike the head. If you stand above your target and deliver blows you'll be more likely to strike the head, too. Below and you'll hit their feet more often than not. Changing the position of your character in relation to your opponent can change that percentage table and allow you to land more effective blows against a weaker part of their armor.

Great info. How can you find out details about the interactions between individual types of attacks or spells and hit percentages? Thanks for the post, Rex.

Lank · May 03, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I don't think formation is important so much as knowing what's going on, and taking advantage of it. For example, there are a lot of Area Effect heals in this game, like Healing Spring and Well of Blood. A good team player will let his party know what he's doing, and good teammates will take advantage of the heal. It's all just about awareness.

Witchfinder General · May 03, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Great info. Thanks muchly!